Politics

Luca is in Washington state. Illinois is the same as Washington and Georgia. Even after Medicare my parents owe THOUSANDS in medicals expenses to the hospital, rehab after the amputations and the orthopedics for the prosthetic leg (he never even got to use) I send $1,000 per month total to the 3 facilities (as that is all they can afford) I send each place $300 per month religiously and yet they call my mom and bug my mom all the time for more. By the time I am done sending the payments my mom wont have much left and of course she loses her SS (will only get my dad's). They could not afford much of a life insurance policy due to all of my dad health issues. A good policy was too expensive for them. However, if their last name was Garcia and they were illegal they would not be hassled for any payment at all - if they even had to pay anything in the first place! It is beyond unfair. It is criminal! My father has paid a fortune in taxes and for medical insurance and they still will be left with no money in the bank by the time my dad passes away.

But, I will say again, Medicare has been really good about the Hospice care payments and did pay a large amount of my dad's ICU and hospital expenses. However, if this all had happened to him before retirement age they would have been totally bankrupt. So if this happens to my husband before he retires we would probably lose everything. It is all horribly unfair - unless of course you are in Illinois illegally

Oh, I just wanted to add that my folks don't qualify for Medicaid because they have a townhouse (not paid off mind you) I still mail a hefty mortgage payment each month for them. Also, prior to the issues my father had this past year, years before (pre-retirement) had bi-pass, open heart, and several other operations. They had to take out a second mortgage to pay off the hospital bills. I still send payment off to that also. The interest keeps going up on it and all they pay keeps going on interest. His medical problems have eaten them up. We hope to be able to keep my mom in her townhouse after my father passes. We may have to help her with some bills (not that we will have the extra to do that) but we don't want her to lose her home.

Frazzle wrote:

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In L.A. there is no way they would take care of you, American, Immigrant, or anything other than insured.

It is certainly interesting to learn about the state to state differences in charity services. I knew that California had reached the point they were having to cut back on services a long time ago, but did not know the extent of the cutbacks. I know in many big cities there is usually one inner city hospital that is nonprofit and takes most of the charity cases. They try to get these folks signed up with Medicaid if they quality and if not, they write it off. Nonprofit hospitals do get federal and state assistance btw.We even get indigent patients from California that can't get services there that come here occasionally. I know if you are a US citizen and have AIDS and can no longer work, you can qualify for SSI and medicaid, and then have to rely on programs like the one you work with Frazz, to help pay for the expensive meds and other services that are not covered.

Here in Washington state, we do offer more assistance programs for low income people. I'm not really sure why that is.other than we have a high percentage of low income residents in most of the state except for the Seattle area. The hospital I work at is the only non-profit one- so we get most of the charity cases since there are only two hospitals in our city.

FC, your elderly parents are experiencing the tragedy of losing it all paying for healthcare that is a major problem in this country. I don't have a clue what the solution is...all I know is that Healthcare issues are going to affect us all at sometime in our lives. Unfortunately, the middle class working folks like all of us are the ones that seem to get the shaft with all of it.

I am with you Frazz, I am all for assisted suicide. I think it is really sad that it is so socially unacceptable for most people. I have to believe it would save tons of money in healthcare costs.

I went to a Ba-Rock concert last night. All the elements were there: crushing, screaming crowds to get in through the doors, fangirls planted in the front, standing room only. Posters and t-shirts you could buy - this Ba-Rock star has even written a book you could get autographed.

He had his music video playing on the tv screens overhead, the one he did with that guy from the Black Eyed Peas. His number one single, "Yes We Can." His opening act was a gospel choir. And then when he hit the stage, it was like the Beatles circa 1967. I'm not kidding.

He sang all his greatest hits, to the screaming pleasure of a fawning crowd. He sang "Wall Street and Main Street"; "Change the Way Washington Works"; "Failed Policies of the Past", but the biggest cheers came for his greatest hit, "George W. Bush won't be on the ballot." That brought the house down.

Fans were down on the barricades trying just to get close to him. I swear the girl next to me screamed "I'm gonna touch him! I'm gonna touch him!"



Erm. I only voted for Barack Obama. I want to see changes in environmental policy, movement toward more comprehensive health care, and I want us to get the hell out of Iraq yesterday, but I swear some of these folks want to be groupies. It's crazy.

I've never seen a political movement like this. I just hope it doesn't turn ugly when these people realize he's not going to be able to do everything that's on his platform.

It eventually always turns ugly- no matter who is elected and reality kicks in. I get an ill felling just saying this-but, I am really paranoid someone will try to assasinate him. I really question how evolved the majority of the country will truely be if a black president is elected. The level of hysteria you describe scares me too. It seems those politicians and famous people who inspire that also inspire great hatred and agression.

I think of Martin Luther King, John Lennon, the Kennedys and wonder is this country truely ready for Barack.

I keep having visions of Obama being assassinated, too. Been having them weirdly, as visions, not imaginings, ever since I first became aware of him during his fabulous speech at the 2004 Democratic convention.

I want very much for that not to happen, but I can't seem to banish the vision.

People who inspire passionate fandom in the Kennedy/King/Sadat/Lennon/(George Wallace even, and even though he did not die), have inspired the masses differently, but they all had fans who would kill or die for them, for real. That is why I see it as inevitable for Obama. Him being black is not the outstanding reason as far as I am concerned though the killer may well be a racist. Or anybody at all.

If that actually does happen, I really hope he has a solid VP who can actually do the job (Bill Richardson would be my choice).

Which brings me back to the Lennon song "Imagine" and why DavidA's rendition has turned me off irrevocably to him.

The question of what WOULD you kill or die for is the central theme of the song, and if you are too stupid at any age to even ask the question DO NOT SING THAT SONG.

Well David did just turn 17 a couple weeks ago. I'm sure not gonna hold the way he sings a song against him Besides, my mom and I had tears pouring down our faces just like Paula did when he was through. We thought his version was gorgeous and we have no way of knowing what this kid does or doesn't feel singing it. So clearly not everyone felt like you did about the way he sang it. I think as an American he has all the right in the world to sing any song he darn well feels like singing. Clearly the song has strong meaning to you, but kids have a strong meaning to me. I'm not saying you don't care about kids, but yeah - I'm feeling rather protective of a 17 year old right now.

Obama is not ready to be president and people (women especially) are just going on charisma/charm. It is sad and rather pathetic.

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Obama is not ready to be president and people (women especially) are just going on charisma/charm. It is sad and rather pathetic.
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Well i am a woman and I assure you I am not going on just charisma and charm. I have been studying the issues sincs summer, I have a notebook with notes. I take this VERY seriously. I want who is best for this country and who I agree with on key issues. I agree with him on many and that is why he is my choice. Id anyone just votes straiight party lines or goes on looks, charisma ,etc. Thay are the idiot and the loser.

Oh of course I didn't mean you Aerwin (or all women because I sure am not charmed by him) just that it seems a lot of women who don't really bother to learn all about the candidates are going on charisma. I think Bill Clinton also had that same very strong effect on women. I said "especially women" because I don't think most men are as easily swayed by a male's charisma. I am not putting down women here, just that what Abrahammy described about women just wanted to touch him etc., just goes to prove my point. I'm thinking not a lot of women are dying to touch John MaCain Or maybe they are

As Far as that kid changing the lyrics on AI, If I were Yoko Ono which I clearly am not I would NOT give permission for the lennon ctalog to be sung. Period. Because when you do that is what happens. I would prefer the song be sung as Lennon wrote it. But that is the chance you take when you allow it. It's not like she needs the money.

Well, to be honest my maternal instincts are WAY stronger than my political concerns I have insane maternal instincts and I have since I was very little. I have taken care of kids my entire adult life. Though for some reason they were not very strong for Sanjaya or Chicken Little

The kids cannot sing the whole song on AI so they work with the music director on a short version of the song. Something has to be cut. David chose his favorite verse, but has previously song the whole song at other shows/events. Besides, all artists have different way of interpreting their art. I think the artist who pissed in a jar and put a crucifix in it was an creep. Others found him brilliant. So there you go.

There are probably some people who are voting for Obama because he has charisma. I actually began this season in Hillary's corner; I gradually, and somewhat reluctantly, took up the Obama banner after a long and careful look at a lot of things.

Obama is kind of green, but just in observing him as he conducts his campaign I have determined that he is exceptionally bright and a very quick study. He has made better decisions. He has responded quickly and appropriately to controversy. He has recently shown much better management skills than Hillary, who is flailing wildly, has. I have to say her ineptitude both surprised and concerned me. I do hope he choses an experienced person as his Vice President, but that person - let's just say it's Bill Richardson - will be training a very talented man, not carrying a hopeless tinhorn.

Hillary cannot get elected in a general election. There are too many people who hate her to the core of their soul. Hillary's name on the ballot by itself will be enough to cause record turnouts for people who oppose her. It's unfortunate, it's not fair, but it's incontrovertible. She cannot win.

If John McCain had been the Republican nominee in 2000, I might actually have had to sit down and deliberate carefully as to who I was going to vote for. Had he been running for reelection in 2004, I would almost certainly have voted for him rather than John Kerry.

I can't vote for him this year. It's Dubya's fault. I do not at all believe that Republicans are all evil, and McCain is among the best, but the disastrous regime that has preceded has raped this country so badly, has embarrassed us so completely on the world stage, has chipped away so badly at the civil rights of the citizenry, has been so grossly fiscally irresponsible, and has pandered so completely to the greed of the elite at the expense of the poor that it absolutely, positively HAS to be repudiated by the people. The Republicans HAVE to lose power this year. Honestly, if the Congress would be willing to impeach Cheney instead, I'd accept that, but it isn't going to happen. There absolutely, positively has to be visible consequences for any political regime that disregards the Constitution to this degree and lies to us so completely about matters of such desperate importance.

In the meantime, McCain has some emotional baggage, I think. He was horribly abused during the Vietnam War, and yet we lost that pointless war. He paid an enormous personal price for nothing - and he's just so desperate to win this one, to bring us out proudly as winners and he thinks it will restore our national pride. Poor Mr. McCain. This mess is not really his fault, but he does not understand that the only thing that will give us honor in the world's eyes now is to reject the people who sent us there and get the hell out.

He's a good, good man. He'd have been a good president in 2000 and he probably would have handled 9/11 well. This is not his time. It is very unfortunate. Add in that I think we need to abolish many of the Bush tax cuts, and we need to revamp out health care system (McCain won't do that) and...

It appears that our best bet is to let the very brilliant, capable, inexperienced Obama learn the job on the job. I have more hope that Obama can get up to speed quickly than I do that Hillary will get elected, or that McCain will suddenly realize that he's desperately wrong on several key points. It's not an ideal situation. The ideal choices may already have lost the primaries.

Not all women are voting for Obama because he's charming.

There's something else that really hit me yesterday, thinking about the boys who are dying in the Iraq war.

Here are the numbers.

http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_casualties.htm


Here is a handful of names and ages.

Killed in January:
Evan A. Marshall, 21
Brandon Meyer, 20
Joshua Young, 21
Duncan Charles Crookston, 19
Michael Sturdivant, 20
James McGluff, 20

Ponder this. On 9/11, the horrible day that led us to this mess, Evan and Joshua were 14 years old. Brandon, Michael, and James were 13.

Duncan was TWELVE.

They were children when the towers fell. They are dead now because old men chose to send them into danger to exorcise their own demons - Dubya tried to finish something his father did. And Al Queda is stronger than ever.

My oldest son just turned eleven, and McCain said we could occupy Iraq for a long time.

No. Just. No.

You are right about McCain being a good and honorable man. I just do not agree with him on key issues. Amnesty for illegals , keeping Dubya's tax cuts that benefit the wealthy, gun control, healthcare, staying in Iraq. I certainly would have voted for him in 00 and I do think we would be in a much better place. I just cannot vote for him this time. I certainly admire him and I love the McCain Feingold bill that he sponsored. But at this time I feel Obama is a better man for the job and this country.

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It appears that our best bet is to let the very brilliant, capable, inexperienced Obama learn the job on the job. I have more hope that Obama can get up to speed quickly than I do that Hillary will get elected, or that McCain will suddenly realize that he's desperately wrong on several key points. It's not an ideal situation. The ideal choices may already have lost the primaries.

I agree with you. But, like Frazzle I am afraid about what the reaction will be if Obama wins. But, I will vote for him anyway because of all the reasons you mentioned.

I agree that the war is horrible, that those young men have died is horrible, but we do not have a draft (THANK GOD) and those young men chose to be in the military and serve their country. They died for something they believed in and I will respect that and their memory. Abrahammy, when I read your posts I feel like you feel like you have the weight of the world on your shoulders. I tend to try to be more optimistic about things. I have enough to deal with being a parent of teenagers and my aging and dying parents. If I saw the country the way you do I don't think I could get out of bed in the morning. I still think there is plenty to be proud of as an American and plenty of good things going on in this country. So much gloom and doom in this thread. I'm gonna go back to avoiding it

I just want to add something I read in the Clack House AI thread. David did Eva Cassidy's version of Imagine. There are DJs that were so impressed with it that they are playing it on the radio. I am sure the other contestants are thrilled about that Anyway, there are sites on the Internet where you can listen to it and the plays are over 1,000,000 total! I think that is amazing, and I think Lennon would be thrilled to know how many young people, 40 years later, are listening to his song. Just my opinion of course YMMV and all that good stuff

I like abrahammy's political views. Not depressing to me at all. in fact they inspire me, as do everybody else's posts about issues that are important to all of us...problems we want solved, even if there are disagreements about how to solve them.

I do think that discussions of issues , and disagreeing points of view turn off some people and excite others (obviously I am in the excited camp).

Some people get unhappy with disagreement. If you are one of them, then I applaud a decision not to engage in a political thread.

I want all of us to feel comfortable, but i do not think anybody has to soft pedal their views to make somebody else comfortable when those views are about people and issues not on this board, and not about unfamous people on other boards.

I think John Lennon is rolling over in his grave at the cute-sifying up of this song.

The fact that DavidA's rendition is getting all sorts of fanplay is horrifying to me. It does not mean more people will understand the song. It means more people will be relieved not to have to get disturbed by it. it was not meant to be a comforting or a comfortingly sad song.

Eva Cassidy did understand the song. She delivers the goods. It isn't her slight musical rearrangement that is the issue, (I just listened to Eva's version right now).

So please keep posting views. Nobody is going to be harmed, though some may get their feelings hurt, and maybe we can come up with ideas the people in charge haven't come up with yet!

I actually do enjoy and get excited about debates. It is difficult being the sole republican here, and yes, I do feel as though I am annoying the heck out of everyone else here because of it Yes, I was hurt ealier on in the thread when there were some ugly comments about republicans, because I do not see us that way. Not all the ones I have known, and not myself certainly. I know there are serious problems in this country but I do not think the sky is falling and I still think this is the best country in the world - my opinion. I myself find some of Abrahammy's posts a bit depressing yes, but I love her dearly. I guess because I do not see our country as being that "hated" by the rest of the world (not anymore than we have been for decades, especially by the muslims) and I do not feel our country is an embarresment. We are far from perfect, but we are still a great nation and we DO help a lot of other countries and a LOT of other countries look to us for that help.

Grant you I know I see the world from a married with children, owning a large beautiful home in a gorgeous neighborhood, nice cars and my kids getting a darn good education, lots of great food to eat, etc. point of view. But I have these things because of the opportunities this country has to offer and took advantage of it. I know others haven't had that success, but my entire life has been somewhat "privileged" because my father also made it a point to take advantage of opportunities. He was the son of Polish immigrants who came here (legally) for a better life and made a darn good life for their family. It can be done. It takes work and I guess some luck, but it can be done. My Dad always said when I was young "pick the lifestyle you want and see what you have to do to make it happen." His dad did that. My father did that. My husband and I did that. We never expected anyone to give us anything we have. We just planned and worked for it. Sadly our new home has had some "unexpected issues" that has taken a real bite from our savings account, but that is life and those things happen when you own a home. AND I am NOT saying anybody at this board has been looking for anyone to give them anything! I know this! I am not shouting, just trying to "pre-empt" a strike as I get them plenty I know that Frazz and GE picked extremely tough fields to try to make a living at. The competition is FIERCE and so many do not catch a brake. But I assume they knew that going into it.

So, I do know there is a LOT that needs to be improved, no I am not smart enough to come up with answers, but there is a lot of "wonderful and beautiful" in this country and it's people too. There is a lot to be proud of to go along with what there isn't to be proud of.

Going back to David. You know I have a 17 year old son. Many 16 and 17 year old boys are in my house OFTEN I would not expect them to have the same emotional attachment to that song as those who grew up Beatle fans and during Vietnam. I just don't see how they could. They are just kids living in a totally different world. From my perspective I do not see these young people anywhere near as "politically minded" as young people of the 60's were. I do think they can appreciate a beautiful song. I do think they should be allowed to sing that song. Most 16 year olds are not going to have strong feelings about John Lennon and the way his mind worked. Heck I was alive at that time and I honestly didn't get that into John Lennon, (sorry, I was WAY more into The Stones than The Beatles) So I guess what I am saying is I don't know if he is spinning in his grave about his song getting all this new attention. Maybe he is. But you know, I just didn't find his performance of the song "cute-sifying". I was moved to tears as were others. So I guess one person's cute-sifying is another persons moving and that is the way music and performance goes. I guess that is why some people adore Clay Aiken and others hate him. Different strokes and all. But honestly, whatever John Lennon would have thought of David's performance of the song, I like to think he would be supportive of his right to sing it, because that is the way I think of John Lennon, even though I didn't really know him.

Also, FWIW I didn't say "all" women were voting for Obama based on charisma. But I do believe "a lot" are. I had female friends who voted for "The Pepsi Boys" because they were sooooo cute!!" Gag.

Also, I think all the ladies here are simply amazing and add a lot to my life - as stupid as that may sound - and that is why I am here!

Peace and love!

(oh, and FTR - if the draft comes back I will take my boys by the hand and wisk them away to Cananda so fast they will need a new catagory for huricanes - because I do NOT believe anyone should fight a war they do not beleive in)

I think any debate in which we discuss why we feel the way we do about issues, and are civilized in explaining that with which we disagree, will be healthy for the board. I am not in the least annoyed by Firecracker's political views; I just don't agree with them, and I will NEVER confuse opinions with personalities.

I think getting into the Iraq war for reasons that turned out to be false was an embarrassment. I think refusing to ratify the Kyoto treaty was an embarrassment. I think Guatanamo was an embarrassment. These are policies of a very specific administration, not a permanent indictment of the entire country. If we get out if Iraq and choose our energy options more wisely, I think those embarrassments will abate. Even McCain may have the opportunity to do that, but I fear that if he continues the Bush policy over there, we will dig ourselves deeper into a hole. Like I said, it would have been much better for us if McCain had been the Republican nominee in 2000; if he had been elected, he would have handled the initial crisis much better than Dubya did and we would be in a much better situation.

About Imagine:
There are things in that song with which I disagree - mostly about religion. I've never heard any singer from AI sing it with real understanding of what the song is about and David's too young for me to expect him to get it. A very, very young man sang a very pretty, very generic version of a rather revolutionary song on a very commercial, mainstream TV show. He's a kid with a very pretty voice. I will leave him alone.

By the way did you know that both Afghanistan and Iraq have universal health care supplied by the US?

FC, I think what we're taking exception to is that you seem to be taking things personally and so the statements you are making are things like: You all hate Republicans and I'm insulted so I'm never coming in here again! or "Abrahammy, you're being so depressing so I'm never coming in here again!" If what we say in here bothers you to the degree it does, then yes, you probably shouldn't be reading it, but it's that you keep telling us publicly that what we're saying offends you and therefore you will stop reading what we're saying. As frazz says, it's like you're trying to make us talk about things the way you want to talk about them.

As for David A, yes, he has every RIGHT to sing the song, but there are a million billion OTHER songs he can sing and maybe he should pick one he has an emotional attachment to. Watching these kids take meaningful songs and, as Abrahammy says "grin their way through them" is horrible. When it's a song as loaded as "Imagine" it gets horribly bad. Frazz isn't saying "I hate that boy". She's saying that a 17-year-old boy who couldn't possibly understand what he's singing about should not sing that song. That's her opinion. She's not "attacking" some kid. I feel the same way when I hear someone who has no idea what the song "Landslide" means singing it. When Stevie Nicks sings "I climbed a mountain and I turned around" you believe it. When The Dixie Chicks (who I LOVE) sing it, I don't believe it. When I hear Christina Aguilera sing "At Last" and doing all those runs and trying to make it a showcase for her voice, rather than really connecting with the song, I get upset. So frazz is upset that a song that has meant so much to her and does have meaning to many people, was reduced to a bubble-gum song sung by a kid on a reality show. She's not wishing ill-will on little David.

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Hillary cannot get elected in a general election. There are too many people who hate her to the core of their soul. Hillary's name on the ballot by itself will be enough to cause record turnouts for people who oppose her. It's unfortunate, it's not fair, but it's incontrovertible. She cannot win.

Exactly how I feel. I honestly couldn't put it better myself. It's what I've been trying to say to people, and you've just given me a way to express it.

Abrahammy, you're not being depressing, you're being realistic. There's no "draft" but certainly these men didn't expect to have three tours of duty in a row, leaving their family and coming back with no legs. They certainly didn't expect to get into another Vietnam.

When they say they can't get the troops out now, and they've been saying that for years, and yet STILL I've heard absolutely no PLAN for getting them out, I want to pull my hair out. I would imagine the parents, wives and kids are wondering pretty much the same thing.

I am also not going purely on charisma. I think now, more than ever, people are looking at the ISSUES, after the current president has gotten us into the pile of muck he has. Clinton was one of the best presidents we've ever had. Republicans bring up the sex thing. Whatever. He did his job and he did it well. If we're talkingabout a president who coasted on charisma, let's talk freakin' REAGAN. Our current president is making America a fucking laughing stock because he HAS raped us and got megomaniacal. We are looking for someone with a little charisma who can talk with both sides.

Yes, FC, frazz and I did pick very difficult professions. We're certainly not complaining because one person decided on a corporate job that paid them a certain amount of money and they rose up and achieved a certain salary, what we're saying is that if you're a single woman, even if you have a great job, it's hard to make your way in the world. I wonder how well you'd be doing if you had decided not to marry.

My parents both had good jobs. They were middle-class and managed to keep a roof over my head. My mom had to go back to work soon after I was born because they needed both incomes. We're saying that in the world today, most middle-class people who work their asses off have very little to show for it and the cost of living has not kept up with salaries, which are mostly ridiculous. When I was temping, I demanded a certain rate, which wasn't nearly enough to support me. When I looked into the position permanently (it was a COORDINATOR level position - I was managing the entire department) I found out it didn't pay much more than I was making. It's ridiculous.

I think the catch 22 with David is that, while he is too young to understand Imagine, he is also too young to understand that he does not understand it, especially since he probably does think he does understand it. Understand? He thinks he's saying "Oh, let's all be nice and be friends" and thinks he gets it.

So how angry can I be? He's too young to realize that he's cutified it, especially since that song can be semi-understood by well-meaning innocents at a very superficial level. Now, when an adult grins, "Take another little piece of my heart" and doesn't read THOSE lyrics carefully enough to realize the woman is being emotionally abused, I get annoyed. But that's probably not about politics.

FWIW, the top 24 and top 20 contestants are giving a list of 50, yes 50, songs to select from for the theme weeks. This info is discussed in various AI threads on several boards and in most of the contestants exit interviews. I believe it is also in Robbie's interview I put in the AI thread, but I would have to double check. If not I can find it in lots of places and bring it to the AI thead. David has sung it before in compeitions. It was on the list of 50 so he picked it. Just the way it goes on that show. No billions of songs to chose from. That is why the judges "song choice" comments come across so ridiculus to many. 24 competitors - 50 songs. Not a lot to choose from.

Also, FWIW GE, I came back into this thread because Frazz PM'd me and asked me to as she said she was interested in my opinions. So I did.

When I put " " next to my "doom and gloom" comment I thought that people would get I was kidding Maybe that tongue wagging guy means something else

I never said Frazz said she hated the kid. She put her opinion out there and I put in mine, I guess with the knowledge that the kid only had the 50 damn songs to choose from in the first place I'm using lots of these guys because I think I am better with them than I am words

I honestly thought in my last post I did my best to express my appreciation for everyone here. I sure wasn't expecting your response to it GE. But that is OK. I'm sure you've been wanting to say it to me for a long time

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I honestly thought in my last post I did my best to express my appreciation for everyone here. I sure wasn't expecting your response to it GE. But that is OK. I'm sure you've been wanting to say it to me for a long time

FC, I haven't wanted to say anything to you for a long time. I was basing my comments purely on what you said during this discussion. I get riled and I tend to state things passionately. It's how I am.

What I meant about frazz with David, is that you got protective of David as a person, when all frazz was saying is that if you can't connect to the true meaning of how deep that song is, don't sing it. I agree with her whether there's 50 or 5,000 songs to choose from.

I don't mean for you to think that I hate FC, the person. I am like frazz. I get excited over debate. I think when everything is puppy dogs and rainbows that it's boring and not real. I don't think people should fight all the time, but a healthy debate is always good, as long as nobody is attacked on a personal level.

When I came to work the day after the Dixie Chicks won all those grammys and I was cheering, one woman said "why don't they just sing about something positive?" I just said "in my eyes, it was positive" and walked away. I can't get into a debate with someone who thinks if we're just all the positivity police, then everything will be sunshine and happiness.

I don't think that we should all walk around like the sky is falling. That ain't healthy either. I'm saying there's room for both sides. I love that we're smart women discussing politics and talking about issues that matter to us. I guess that's why there was such an uproar when it was intimated that the main reason we'd vote for Obama or Clinton was because they had charisma.

I don't mind that you're in here FC. We certainly want to hear your views. I address you directly because you made a comment and I want to answer it. I don't think you should just go away. I don't believe that's ever a way to handle a situation. I much prefer dealing directly with an individual. You or I might be walking around with ideas about the other person (in a general sense, like, all married people...all republicans...all single people...all democrats...) and it's good that we get a chance to answer to it and set the record straight.

Like I said, it was only me and a couple of other people on another board who were democrats and I went into that politics thread knowing I was not going to have the popular opinion, but if I could show that I had an opinion and maybe change a mind or two, I would be happy.

I also find debate very interesting too, but I know many people find it difficult to separate the emotion and personal feelings with it and that makes it tough to keep it on an intellectual basis only. I hesitated to comment here at first, but did decide to jump in because there are
some very intelligent discussions and topics going on here and I like the
mental stimulation. With that said, I am not afraid now to come out with an unpopular opinion...so here it goes.

Just for the record....I don't consider myself a democrat or a republican. I have strong alliances with mainly conservative veiwpoints, but also have some liberal views. I just like who I like that I feel will do the best job and who's overall views I support and that does'nt make me cringe when I hear them speak. I don't totally agree with what any of the candidates stand for, but from what there is to choose from I am going for the fresh, young, exciting, charismatic, inexperienced one this time. Charisma and likeability is a very important characteristic for a successful politian to have. As we all know when it comes to getting bills approved in congress and in getting the country behind you, without it you are dead in the water. We have all seen that without it things stagnate and the president is rendered ineffective.

Also, just for the record...I hate Hilary Clinton for more reasons that you all probably want to know. I agree Bill and Hilary did some good things while in office, but feel they are both irratic, unprofessional, back-stabbing
psychos.

As for the being 17 as a reason that you can't understand what Imagine stands for or means...sorry, but David seems very immature and naive for 17. I was living la Vida Loca at that age and listening to song lyrics for content and meaning even more closely than I do now. I understand both viewpoints on this. I am so used to seeing the kids mess up classic tunes on Idol that I am numb to it in some respects. But, I will defend that David A. has one of the most beautiful voices of anyone I have heard on that show, and I know the way they sing songs and their song choices are heavily influenced by the producers and song coaches on AI, so I think most of the blame for poor interpretations of classic songs is what this show thrives on...and that is why I have gotten less and less interested and behind it.

GE, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!

I have been in tears since your post I so did not mean to upset anybody here

Like you, I only wanted to state my opinions/feelings. I do ramble on as I try to "justify" why I feel the way I do. But that in no way means that I want anybody to "post a certain way" or even change their mind. I don't know how this thread can even be a "debate" if everyone in here agrees . Yet somehow when I post my opinions they get turned into me wanting people to change theirs and that is NOT what I am trying to do.

As far as saying Abrahammy's posts are depressing - it is not because I disagree with anything in them or think she is wrong in anyway. They are depressing because so much of them are true! I called this thread filled with "gloom and doom" because so much of the subject matter in here IS. There is no way a thread where we talk about war and young people dying is not going to have a feeling of gloom. Talking about people not being able to make ends meet, get health care, etc. - that is sad stuff. My father is dying a long suffering death. Things are horrible for him right now. There are no words. So much sadness. I do still TRY to look on the bright side of life(no Spamalot pun intended) look for the positive, look for the good - hey, a sweet and lovely young man singing a beautiful song makes me feel good! I don't know how people could go on if they don't try to see the good and uplifting.

I have had a lot of good in my life. A TON of happy. I am grateful and thankful for all of it. I'm glad I live in a country where it is possible.

Anyway, just because I voice the different opinions and state them, with passion as you do yours, does not mean I am trying to get anybody to "post differently". I am only doing what you are.

I don't understand how it became "everyone is voting for Obama because of his charisma". What Abrahammy said she saw the other night is going on all over and there are "many" people swayed by his charisma, not "all". See right now I am the one feeling I need to walk on eggshells Obama will not be the first winning people over with charm. They say Hitler did. NO, I am not comparing Obama to Hitler. Just that I have read that is how he got so many people to listen to him. Growing up in Chicago I saw it with Jesse Jackson. His charisma and gift of public speaking was magical. Even when I didn't agree with a word he said - I couldn't NOT watch him. It happens. I think Obama has that same kind of power with his charisma. Not saying that is "all" he has or that "all' people are swayed by it, heck I am far from the only person even saying it, but it is happening. I sure as HECK didn't say anybody here was voting for him based on charisma. I wouldn't even have mentioned it if Abrahammy didn't share her experience with us.

I did not just get passionate about defending David the person (but yeah, I am going to defend a kid because I have always been passionate about kids) but I got passionate about his "right" to sing it. Though honestly I think in his case it is more than a right to sing it - I think TPTB encouraged it because this is the kid they want to win, this is a kid who won Star Search singing that song, so I do not think it is any co-inky dink that it was cleared and on the list for him to PICK to sing! But that is a whole "grassy knoll" theory I guess and it belongs in the AI thread and I enjoyed it just the same. Besides, if we got riled up about every kid that came on that show and butchered a wonderful song we would be in a bad way I am sure Stevie Wonder and Elton John fans have been beside themselves quite often. I don't think too many 16 year olds have it in them to totally connect to most of the songs they pretty much "have" to sing on that show. Also most of them are nervous as all get out. That is why I think a lot of them "grin through" the songs. It covers their terror. Remember poor Ace's "deer in the headlights" look whenever he sang on that show?

So anyway, thanks. I am glad, at least I hope, we have cleared the air .

ETA: My good friend Luca posted while I was typing! To be honest, for the first time in my adult life I do not even feel like voting I do not want to vote for Obama, and if McCain thinks we should/could be in Iraq for another 12 years - I would sooner DIE than vote for him. Maybe I will vote for Nadar!!