Politics

No aerwin, I'm not wrong. And you don't want to go debating me about my understanding of job loss in this country. I understand it very well.

I never said Bush Sr. passed it, I said I thought it started under him. And here are the origins of it like I was suggesting:

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NAFTA was initially pursued by politicians in the United States and Canada supportive of free trade, led by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, and the Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. The three countries signed NAFTA in December 1992, subject to ratification by the legislatures of the three countries. There was considerable opposition in all three countries. In the United States, NAFTA was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993. Since the agreement had been signed by Bush under his fast-track prerogative, Clinton did not alter the original agreement, but complemented it with the aforementioned NAAEC and NAALC.

I am not debating anyone about job loss in this country I am simply stating how Nafta, which Clinton passed and championed affected me and the people I know personally. I know when it passed because things drastically changed . I don't care if Nixon started it Clinton pushed it through. The Clintons are also in bed with Communist China even though she has protested much about human rights violations there they took a ton of money for their foundation for them. I personally think they are underhanded and dishonest. I don't want the two headed monster back in the White House, the fact that she did not have the grace to concede last night when it is clearly over made me dislike her more. She does not care about the Democratic party.

I think Aerwin and Frazz should be in The White House!

Aerwin wrote:

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I don't want the two headed monster back in the White House, the fact that she did not have the grace to concede last night when it is clearly over made me dislike her more. She does not care about the Democratic party

Yes, my thoughts exactly about her not conceeding. Tres tacky and probably will be shooting herself in the foot if she wanted a shot at the VP spot or on Obama's team in any capacity.

Does she really think she has a chance of being the nominee at this point? What reason would she have to keep going, except as an ego trip at this point?

I love this thread btw! I am more interested in what you all have to say about your take on all this than any political journalists or broadcasters!

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The Clintons are also in bed with Communist China even though she has protested much about human rights violations there they took a ton of money for their foundation for them.

Do tell more about this. That's something I've never considered before.

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Bill Clinton, China linked via his foundation
Eugene Hoshiko, Associated Press

IN HANGZHOU: President Clinton gave the keynote address at a 2005 conference organized by Alibaba, hailing the Internet as “an inherently cooperative instrument.”
A firm that has donated to the president's charity is accused of collaborating with the government in its crackdown on Tibetan activists. Hillary Clinton has spoken out against China's actions.
By Stephen Braun, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
April 13, 2008

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Billary's ties to a particular faction of the chinese organized group has been well documented. The american public is so slow to catch on. go back in history just a little bit... Everything is connected no other politician in american history has the ties that the Clintons have. Remeber this is only the documented stuff.

A tiny glimpse of history may be in order; for those too young too remember:

Charle Trie
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/op080397.htm

Norman Hsu's Boss Chan Tse-Chiu aka Eddie Chan
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE2D6173AF931A3575AC0A966958260

Norman
The return Of Dollar Bill's magic money men ... err pass it on to Hillary please...
Norman
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=local&id=5643329

On Jim Webb:

If he is the VP nominee I will aggressively campaign against Obama. As far as I can tell all the other possibilities are fine with me.

From this long article:

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In 1979, in an infamous article in The Washingtonian magazine called "Women Can't Fight," Webb argued that women were biologically unsuited to combat and didn't belong in the military academies. He said that the mere presence of women was "poisoning" the environment for male cadets.

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He also...declared that no senior female in a leadership position at the academy won her rank by merit, thereby impugning the accomplishments of every female midshipman and throwing fuel on the smoldering resentments of a vocal minority of disgruntled midshipmen.

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Webb's writings on women did a hell of a lot of damage. It gave invaluable ammunition to the enemies of women's presence in the military and helped stall and perhaps even roll back women's progress there. Kathleen Murray, a 1984 academy graduate who went on to become a commander in the Navy, said of Webb's screed: "This article was brandished repeatedly. [Men] quoted and used it as an excuse to mistreat us." Her observation is confirmed by this post, which contains devastating testimony by women in the military about the effect Webb's writings had. For instance, here is what Commander Jennifer Brooks, USN(retired) had to say:

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I was 19 years old and in my second year at the Academy when the Webb article came out. I was devastated to be told by a war hero that the Academy should be shut down rather than accept me, and that my very presence was responsible for the degradation of the military. As a best selling author, James Webb knew the power of words, and to describe the Naval Academy as ‘a horny woman’s dream’ was inexcusable. My mother read that.

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I joined the Navy to serve my country. It was unbelievably demoralizing to be painted as a pampered slut who was taking up classroom space and pre-destined to endanger the lives of the brave young men around her.

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You may say, well, that was way back in the 80s and late 70s. He's changed since then, right? But that is not exactly clear. At a 1991 convention of naval aviators called Tailhook, 83 women were reported to have been sexually harassed or assaulted by military personnel. From the beginning, Webb's concern for the victims was merely perfunctory. But he gave many speeches and wrote many articles vociferously defending the accused. In a 1992 article in the New York Times, he called the investigation of Tailhook a "witch hunt." In a 1997 article he wrote for the conservative Weekly Standard, he was highly critical of what he termed "ever-expanding sexual mixing" in the military and he referred to feminist efforts to improve the status of women in the military as merely "salving the egos of a group of never-satisfied social engineers."

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And yes, once again he brought up Tailhook, and once again he showed himself more concerned with attacking feminists than with securing justice for the victims: "Events such as the 1991 Tailhook debacle have been seized upon and used by feminists to attack the military culture and bring about major concessions." Indeed, as late as the time this book was published (2004), Webb, according to the author, "persists in refusing to blame the Navy and Marine Corps officers who participated in the abuses of Tailhook, who failed to raise a hand to stop them and stonewalled the investigation that followed."

There is more.

Obama himself shows some small but persistent sexist-pig assholery. He getter get somebody who at least SEEMS pro-women.

I do not know if Bill Richardson (my fave) John Edwards (who has said he won't do it) would help win over McCain, but at least they would not alienate the already pissed off women like me.

I was not an ardent Hillary supporter, at all, and intermittently got excited about Obama, plus Hillary and Bill hinting at the race issues really annoyed me, but what went past annoying me into genuine anger was the Obama supporters hate and rage toward middle aged white women on any board that allowed comments that I went to. I kept looking for a board that didn't do that. I did not find it, though I found many where the middle-aged white women were very apologetic for being such inherently despicable creatures given that they were such fervent Obama supporters. Everybody ignored them, the way one does with the true outcasts of an in-group.

Politics is a nasty, dirty, elitist game that seems to bring out the worst in people and has always turned me off. I truely believe anyone who makes it to the governor and especially the US senator stage has lots of warts and most likely is unethical, dishonest, power hungry, sexist and not what they want us to believe they are. Maybe I am generalizing and discriminating in my own way, but it all seems to come down to the wealthy and priviledged putting money back into each others pockets and forming alliances that come with benefits and costs that eventually come back to bite the working class.

Our only choice is to try to pick the least corruptable and dispicable candidate out of the bunch that will do maybe 10- 25% of what they say they will do in their campaign speeches to make this country better in some way while not making major far reaching screw-ups in the process. Maybe that is an almost impossible dream now with the complexity of the playing field, and the power of the political party machines.

As far as the older white women being the unpopular voiceless group in this country, especially on Obama boards...well that is definitely the case. I am curious though, who it was that came out and voted in droves for Hilary. It seems she had many young women supporters excited about the prospect of a woman President.

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Politics is a nasty, dirty, elitist game that seems to bring out the worst in people and has always turned me off. I truely believe anyone who makes it to the governor and especially the US senator stage has lots of warts and most likely is unethical, dishonest, power hungry, sexist and not what they want us to believe they are.

Yep, my view, too.

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Our only choice is to try to pick the least corruptible and despicable candidate out of the bunch that will do maybe 10- 25% of what they say they will do in their campaign speeches to make this country better in some way while not making major far reaching screw-ups in the process.

I think they are all equally corruptible and corrupted.

So the only hope is that the person who gets elected will, for their own corrupted reasons, DO THINGS that will benefit ones own life. (in my case, affordable health care, middle-aged and older women care, artistic-people support -- stuff like that is what really matters to me. If I were a zillionaire white corporate man I would have radically different priorities. If I were exactly in my position but black, my priorities would be slightly, but not radically different. If I were a white woman with a white husband who had a good job and some kids on the way to adulthood, I would have different priorities, too.

So, for my priorities, I hope Obama does feel the need to woo women (including young ones) who supported Hillary, not because I supported her, but because those women also have priorities in common with me.

The main things he stands for...are what, really? I still do not know. I know the types of character traits he is selling, but they keep being debunked. So it is just an actors trick so he can be cast as the good moral guy. It isn't that he IS the good moral guy, any more than Ronald Regan was. Or Jimmy Carter, who at least did do some concrete good with Habitat for Humanity, but that is about all.

Some combination of Bill Richardson, Gloria Steinem, Obama, Reverend Wright, Harriet Christian, Dennis Kucinich, and ROn Paul, plus a currently unknown radical feminist, is who I really want (meaning taking only the beliefs of each of them that agree with me). Throw in a gay crusader.

Well I am a 42 year old white woman married to a white republican man and I have not felt alienaited by Obama. Granted I have not spent much time on the boards. I read both liberal and conservative publications and right in the middle of that is where you find the truth. the reason I mentioned Jim Webb at all is because some pundits think he maybe able to appeal more to conservative America. Face it he will HAVE to do this to win. My ideal would be an Edwards/ Obama or Richardson. They are all youngish and I do think Bill Richardson has some great fresh ideas. Yes and I do think most polticians are corrupt and have to be to get where they are . It is unfortunate but true. But I make it my business who they are beholden to. I feel like Obama is the is not as much in the pocket of insurance and drug corp as some others. I want some shit fixed people and I feel he may be able to do this. I happen to think the clintons are more corrupt than some and that is why I cannot support her. Yes I am womam and have been a female my whole life , but I do not feel that obligates me to support someone I feel is unethical.

Tonight there are lots of rememberences of Robert Kennedy and his death.

Here is the deal....Robert Kennedy was a ruthless bullshit artist, with no particular moral compass, but he was in favor, once he was running for president, of things that were great, in my opinion, and that outweighed the ruthlessness and the bullshit quotient.

I am now an official Obama supporter, because McCain simply does not believe in pretty much ANYTHING I believe in.

But I actually think that McCain is more honestly who he really is. I will not say that anywhere but here, given our blessedly low profile.

I think Obama is smarter than pretty much anybody who ever ran (except maybe Robert Kennedy) about how to manipulate people, the media, all the voters who do not demand anything specific. The difference was that Robert Kennedy, much like the murderer Teddy, had a proven ability to GET THINGS DONE.

Here is one bona fide thing Obama got done..manipulating the system to get himself elected, with NO COMPETITION, in Illinois the first time:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070403obama-ballot,1,57567.story

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"He wondered if we should knock everybody off the ballot. How would that look?" said Ronald Davis, the paid Obama campaign consultant whom Obama referred to as his "guru of petitions."

In the end, Davis filed objections to all four of Obama's Democratic rivals at the candidate's behest.

I will vote for the people who get things done over the folks who seem to be "good people" every time, if what they want done will be good for me and the people i most care about..

I do believe McCain can get things done. That is why I am signing up for every Obama thing I can find. Not because I believe in Obama, but because I know how much stuff McCain can get done that is absolutely counter to my interests.

And I hope and pray, in so far as I have a version of praying, that Obama gets elected (as long as Jim Webb is not the VP -precisely because I suspect Webb can get things done and those won't be things I want)...

OK..enough rant for tonight.

p.s. I love it that people post their suff here.

Aerwin gets a BIG SMOOTCH from me. I do read all your links, and I do think about it. Hillary is not my choice, either, however infuriated I am about the sexism she was subjected to. She could have been vilified in ways OTHER than "nagging wife, scolding mother, PMS, bitch, witch, bitter, angry, nutcracker. shrill, shrieking, evil first wife at the custody hearing"...all those things said over and over and over. And over and over.

Criticize her for being an overly power hungry automaton willing to do not noble things to get what she wants..but do not tear her down just because you ("you" meaning media, posters, not anybody here) hate women.

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because McCain simply does not believe in pretty much ANYTHING I believe in.

ME.

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But I actually think that McCain is more honestly who he really is.

Agree. And I do love the fact he pushed McCain /Feingold through and I most certainly agree with you he can get things done. Just not what I want done.

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Aerwin gets a BIG SMOOTCH from me.

That's good because I drive my husband crazy with political stuff. My brother and I argue , argue because he is so conservative.

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I am about the sexism she was subjected to. She could have been vilified in ways OTHER than "nagging wife, scolding mother, PMS, bitch, witch, bitter, angry, nutcracker. shrill, shrieking, evil first wife at the custody hearing"...all those things said over and over and over. And over and over

I admantly agree with you there. When I heard all the sexists remarks made about her I tried to explain to my son who wrong and disrespectful that was to ALL women. The thing that also gives me hope about Obama is maybe it is not a white male dominated world after all.

Frazzle wrote:

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I am now an official Obama supporter, because McCain simply does not believe in pretty much ANYTHING I believe in.

But I actually think that McCain is more honestly who he really is. I will not say that anywhere but here, given our blessedly low profile.

I think Obama is smarter than pretty much anybody who ever ran (except maybe Robert Kennedy) about how to manipulate people, the media, all the voters who do not demand anything specific. The difference was that Robert Kennedy, much like the murderer Teddy, had a proven ability to GET THINGS DONE.

Dead on. I wonder if Obama will have some ability to get things done. Do his political achievements so far demonstrate any glimmer of that?

Hillary Clinton's final campaign speech, in which she finally shows us who she can be. I think it is a beautiful speech, and her endorsement of Obama is really healing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/25021070#25021292

And a compilation of TV commentators bashing women, including Hillary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-IrhRSwF9U

I am serious: please watch Hillary's farewell speech, no matter what you think of her in other contexts. It is like nothing you have ever seen a powerful woman do before, and it is inspiring about women having the potential to be in positions of power, whether you think she sucks or not:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/25021070#25021292

I am too tired right now and about to go to bed. I promise to watch it tomorrow morning. I am sure it is a wonderful speech.

I watched some of the speech Frazz. What I saw was well done, but I cannot take 30 mins. of any Clinton. Sorry. I would have loved a woman as a presidential nominee, just not that woman. Maybe some doors are more open now and in 4 or 8 years the right woman will come along. One who is not so polarizing or comes with as much baggage.

I was hoping you could detach from who she is. Maybe that is too much to ask. For me it was the first time i have seen a woman (including actresses playing leaders) come across believable as the President.

I don't think I can explain this properly... but it isn't about Clinton, it is about a woman, any woman, standing up and delivering such a speech. ANd it ain't about having Hillary be the president.

I have never before seen a woman give a speech meant for the whole country to hear, that was that clean.

Well, I have seen women give speeches at the conventions. I have watched Elizabeth Dole give speeches for the whole country. Hillary had a good speech writer. She can deliver a speech well. That doesn't mean I believe what she says. I think her and Bill are wonderful actors.

I understand what you are saying and how you felt. I felt that way when I watched Jane Byrne when she was the mayor of Chicago. I was always filled with pride watching her.

I have seen Elizabeth Dole and many women at conventions. Many have been good speakers, regardless of their specific views. But not like this.

I think i simply cannot convey what I mean about what is different here, but it has something to do with genuinely cracking a disbelief that a woman, ANY woman, can ever come across as presidential as a good man with a great speech can.

I think Hillary cracked something that will make it MUCH more possible for another woman to come along in the not too-distant future and WIN IT.

But I wonder who that woman will be? Maybe one of the current sitting female Senators? I'd say Nancy P. might be a heavy possibility. But its at least 4 years away.

I truly hope I get to see a woman President in my lifetime.

I just spent ten days with a lovely woman and very good friend who is a conservative Republican, thought that the guy with a bumper sticker of a picture of Bush with the word "Liar" under it was "stupid" and is pro-oil (she's from Texas).

I was also in a VERY conservative town. (I didn't start seeing the sticker above and the Obama stickers until we went to Santa Fe. Note to self: if you move to New Mexico, move to Santa Fe).

Y'all know I'm not exactly shy about my opinions. I also don't shy away from debate. So, it might come as a shock to you when I say that when she talks about poliitics I just smile, nod my head, and keep my big yap SHUT. This is to save a friendship I value. I know she will never change my mind and I will not be changing hers. Her family comes from a military background. I pretty much don't agree with ANYTHING she says politically, so it is hard not to speak, but I know it will just lead to hair-pulling. She knows I"m a tree-hugging liberal and I think my silence sometimes speaks louder than my arguing.

I'm not crazy about Hillary's personality. Until recently, I adored Bill. I think it's like what Frazz said about the Kennedy's. They get things done.

I think ALL politicians are actors. Every last one of them. I don't know how often we see someone in a truly honest moment, but these people are prepped beyond imagination. That doesn't seem to help our current prez when he's making speeches...

When people say "well Clinton got a BJ in the white house" or "they ruined Arkansas!" or whatnot, and they're Bush supporters, I just shake my head. Lowest approval ratings of any president, a war fought NOT against the people who actually attacked us. Lied to a nation. They're like, Oh yeah...THAT. Whatever. We've got to WIN that war! Win it? WHAT? Yeah! Keep the troops there! More body bags please! My friend just wrote me that her friend's son is coming home from the war in one of those body bags. Never before in history have I felt this powerless. I am in desperate need of change. I'm in desperate need of hope. I'm praying Obama can give me that.

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I am in desperate need of change. I'm in desperate need of hope. I'm praying Obama can give me that.

I think we all are GE. If Obama does nothing else, but to get us the hell out of Iraq and not get us into another war, which I fear McCain will do-I think it will be worth supporting him.

I am more than desperate. Seriously. I did see her speech and I thought it was good. I still do not trust Bilary. But the speech was inspiring. You know what? I don't think Bill did Hilary any good stumping for her. He does not know when to keep his mouth shut.

Or his zipper.